Podcast Season 2 Ep. 7 - Universal Design for Learning with Katie Novak

In this episode we are excited to have Katie Novak join the show. Katie Novak, EdD, is an internationally renowned education consultant, author, graduate instructor at the University of Pennsylvania, and a former assistant superintendent of schools in Massachusetts.

In this episode we talk about UDL - that is Universal Design for Learning. How can we address the needs of everyone in the class? How can we empower students by teaching them in a way that optimizes the learning. We discuss how to engage everyone in a classroom and some strategies that work? How can we allow freedom and movement in a classroom to support how all the students learn? There are some great problem solving strategies offered and we also touch on addressing text base questions with UDL. Lots of good stuff here if you are interested in finding out more about UDL - and need that extra nudge to jump in an explore some new techniques in your classroom.

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Thanks for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed this podcast!

And if you’d like to be featured on an upcoming podcast, please reach out to blue@liveit.earth to start the conversation!

If you prefer reading to listening, you can find the full transcript of the podcast below.

Universal Design for Learning Episode Show Notes

• Visit Katie’s website here.

• UDL “Would You Rather” (recommended resource in episode).

Podcast Transcript

Hi, my name is Blue. And I'm the host of this new podcast, The 21st Century Teacher with Live It Earth. And my job is to ensure that our teachers and students get the most out of our programs.

This new podcast series is just one of the ways I'm going to be supporting our community of educators, with a monthly conversation with a special guest educator discussing a different aspects of 21st century teaching and learning.

I would like to start today by acknowledging the land that I'm on. I'm so grateful to be living, working and playing here in the Slocan Valley of the West Kootenays of British Columbia. My wife, who is Metis and my three young sons, we are very connected to the nature and the land around us, and very conscious to be raising our boys to be connected to feel a connection to the land, but also to understand the history and the culture of this place. So I would like to acknowledge that this is the traditional territory of a number of First Nations groups, that is the the Sinix(t), the Syilx and the K’tanaxa peoples as well this is home to the metis, and many diverse indigenous groups. And I'm very grateful as such to be a visitor on this land, and to have the opportunity to raise my boys in a meaningful way to be grateful for this land, while also appreciating those that came before us. 

A reminder that if you are a teacher in British Columbia, thanks to Focused Education Resources, you now have access to our hybrid learning library. If you would like more information about our blended-learning programs please visit our website liveit.earth.

I am very excited today to have Katie Novak as a guest. She is internationally renowned as an Education Consultant, Author, and Graduate Instructor at the University of Pennsylvania. She is also a former Assistant Superintendent of schools in Massachusetts, with 19 years of experience in teaching and administration, and earned doctorate in curriculum and teaching and nine published books. Katie designs and presents workshops both nationally and internationally, focusing on the implementation of inclusive practices, Universal Design for Learning, multi tiered systems of support, and universally designed leadership. So I'm very excited today to have Katie on the show, and to share some of her knowledge.

So Katie, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I really appreciate you taking the time.

I am so happy to be here to chat with you. 

So can we start, can you share a little bit about your educational background? And how UDL fits into your story?

Yes, I would love to. So my educational background, a lot of people,, since I'm so incredibly passionate about education, assume that I was a lover of school and I excelled tremendously, which was not my story. In fact, I really did like school because I was very committed to the social aspects of it. But I was always in the lower levels. And sometimes when I present I will show a report card from high school of which in one class, I got like a 46 out of 100. It was not a 50. And the comment was “a pleasure to have in class performs adequately”. So no one really expected very much for me, but I was like a good kid, I was good at sports. And so it was just kind of like, you know, school is not for me, I'm sure I'll be fine. 

And when I met my senior year teacher, she said “You know, I want all of you to know what your options are that are available to you. And so some of you might want to join the military go straight to work Community College College, I want you to be prepared for all of those things”. Because I'm in like a Motley Crue class of a bunch of students who, we're not identified as being an honors or AP or anything like that. So we were all a little rowdy. And so she had us like filling out job applications. And she brought in military recruiters and one of the assignments which I really think changed the trajectory of my education life, was to write a college essay. So I wrote one and I always really liked writing. I wrote a lot of love poems about my boyfriends and notebooks and that was pretty much the extent of my writing ability. So I pulled something off and she pulled me aside and was like, “Katie, this is so good. It's so good. You're such a talented writer, and I can't believe that you're not in an honors class and I am putting you in my honors section”. And I was like, “I don't think so Mrs. Kraus, I think that you have me mistaken”. And anyway, she was like “No, you can do this work”. And it really honestly changed everything because I went into this class. And it was awesome. They got to do really awesome things. And there was like so much less compliance. And I was like mad, this had been happening the whole time. And I didn't get a part of it. Like, this is ridiculous. I could do this work. 

So the punchline of the story is that like fast forward 20 years, and I had written a second version of UDL Now, which is the first book that I wrote, and it's now on version three. And I dedicated it to Mrs. Kraus. And I find her and I take her out to dinner, like “you changed my life”. And she's like, look, when you, you know, read my college essay and said, I was like a writing genius. And she's like, “I do remember that was such a good essay”. “And then you put me in honors”, and she was like, “oh, no, don't remember that part”. Like “Mrs. Kraus, obviously, you remember that part. It was like the single most important thing that happened to me ever”. And she was like, “oh, Katie, I used to put a lot in an honors, because I thought everybody could do honors. And like, I was really pushing back against the tracking system”. I was like a guinea pig, and Mrs. Kraus. But the story is so great, because she's like, everyone can be successful and honors. So because Mrs. Kraus believed in me, before I knew that I was a guinea pig, I became a teacher, it was like, I'm going to be like that, I'm going to tell every kid “I know, you'll be successful. Because if you're not successful, that means I'm not successful”. And so that was my teaching career basically spawned from this amazing experiment that Mrs. Kraus did. And while I was teaching, I just started having all these opportunities to get professional learning. And when I first learned about Universal Design for Learning, and the idea that everyone will be successful, if they have the conditions they need, I was just like, hook, line, and sinker. And I was a little bit pushing back, because I felt as though I was great. And I already do this. And you know, if we all had $1, for every time, someone's like, I already do this. And the more that I learned about just how many barriers many students face that prevent them from getting access to the best available, I realized that I was in that position. And I could prevent other people from being in that position, through my work with educators. And so I left the classroom and I've been a District Administrator and Assistant Superintendent, a Graduate Instructor. And now I consult full time. So long story, short message, all kids can learn at high levels, and I am whooping up ready to make that happen. 

That's awesome. You know, just speaking to as a reminder, to me, just how important like having the right teacher sometimes. Like the teacher that has taken on the class, as like, huge key to the success of some teachers. I know, for me, I was always about did I get on with the teacher? And did they inspire me? And did they kind of see my worth within the class? 

That's a really cool story. I love that.

To this day, we're friends on Facebook, and I love her forever. 

That's awesome. That's really great. So Universal Design for Learning, then UDL because I know in North America, we love acronyms. It's a framework to improve and optimize teaching and learning for all people. And this is based on scientific insights into how humans learn. So yeah, what does this mean in practical terms? 

Okay, I can offer you an analogy. So UDL is all about firm goals, and flexible means, and the belief that everyone can work towards the same firm goals, if they have flexible pathways to get there. And because we are very different from each other, and we're always changing, that requires us to have some sort of flexible options. So people often jump to ah, UDL means choice. And that is false. Because UDL is about really thinking about what is the goal? And what is the pathway that has been previously set. And who is that excluding? 

So the best example that I can give you is, imagine that you and all your billion listeners want to come over my house and as a lovely host, my goal is that no one goes away thirsty. So I have a goal that when you come to my house, that I'm going to serve you a drink, that somehow you know, nourishes your need for a beverage. Now, if y'all walked into my house, and I said, here's a beer. I'm very, very obviously excluding a lot of people. So people who are under drinking age, people who do not drink alcohol, people who do not like beer, and it's a really obvious example of like, well, why would you serve beer? If your goal was have a drink, why wouldn't you say like, “Hey, can I get you something to drink, I have water, I have maybe some soda, I can make you some alcohol, like, what are you in the mood for?” And then I can provide you with a drink, because you now have what you need. And that seems so obvious. And yet, in many classrooms, we do the same thing. 

Whereas the true goal is that students will understand how characters interact in a story. And then we hand out a hard copy of a novel in English. And we're excluding anyone who is, you know, has visual impairment, who is multilingual and doesn't decode in English, anybody who is not decoding at that level? And if we really think about, why wouldn't we say, you know, we're going to have this shared reading experience? Is it better for you to have a hardcopy or an ebook or an audible? Or do you want to read it alone? Or with partners? Or can we get it in multiple languages like English and French? And people go, that's a lot. And it's like, no, it's not that is designing it, so everyone can actually do the thing. And so those options that I gave about the book are like, what's the best way for you to comprehend this story, so that you really can delve into the analysis of what's going on with those characters, so that we can talk about how they interact. But people will often believe that they're universally designing by just providing a choice that does not address the barrier. So here is an evidence. So you come over and I say, “Hey, what's going on? Um, I have a beer for everyone. Do you want to enter a red cup? Or do you want to in a blue cup, look I universally designed it”, and you're like “I don't drink”. And I'm like, but I gave you a choice. So I universally designed it. So it's very obvious there that in the same scenario, if I say you're going to learn about characterization, you could read a hard copy of this novel in English, that isn't an 11th grade reading level, or a hard copy of this novel in English, that isn't 11th grade, like, I'm not eliminating the barrier for kids who, again, are blind, are not reading in English, so on and so forth. 

So it's really about thinking differently about what are the conditions that students need, so they can all access the same goals? 

Right? Yeah, that makes sense. I'm going to circle back and have a thought on that in a minute. But the what I'm thinking is what we do know about teachers so that they are bombarded with initiatives, plus, we've had COVID, just to throw that in the mix. New resources, you know, again, particularly with COVID, a lot of new online resources are being kind of thrown around. So a lot is being asked of teachers.

So I know in your book, the Shift to Student Led, Reimagining Classroom Workflows with UDL and Blended Learning, and I'll add all of the books in the show notes, we'll make sure that everybody can access and have a look at what you've seen some of the great authoring work that you've done. But yeah, how can we address learners needs? So reducing barriers, without it being overwhelming for teachers? Because that's what I could see, I could see that pushback from the classroom coming in that, you know, we're already doing this, you know, we're already ticking the boxes. Now, we're already stretched, now you want us to take on this acronym, another acronym? So yeah, how do we address that?

So what I would say is clearly in my scenario of I'm going to make sure everybody has something to drink, a BYOB would be quite effective. So if I said to you, I'm having a party, I'm going to have some water and some soda. And I would love for you to feel welcome to bring some things to add to the cooler, that is less work for me. And it's going to be you know, more accessible to other people, because they're really going to get what they want. And we can think about that in classrooms as well, by really recognizing that we don't have to take ownership, about carving all of those paths out, but that we can then empower students to do that. So you know, a lot of people think about, oh, I have to create, let's say, a choice board. So, you know, there's two different types of standards, right? Sometimes we have goals that are very content based, like students will explain what they have learned about anything. So they can explain about, you know, how to solve a math problem, or the lifecycle of a butterfly, or what were the causes of the, you know, first world war or something like that. And we say you need to explain, and students can explain in lots of ways, so they can explain in writing, they can explain by creating some beautiful, like epic poem, they could put on a skit, they could make audio, and a lot of teachers think I have to come up with all those options. I have to create the rubric for those options. I have to assess all those options. And it's a much better strategy to unpack and say, Okay, this is what it is. Is that you have to be able to explain. Let's put our heads together. And let's talk about what are some ways that you could explain it using some of the technology and the techniques that are really interesting to you. And so you might say, oh, like, oh, we could write it and be like, well, even writing, it could get more specific, because you could write it like a children's book. Or you could write it like a epic poem. Or you could write it like an essay, oh, you could use multimedia. Cool, like, what are some options there. And then you could kind of break up your class into different groups, and say, “Okay, so the four of you are in charge of kind of creating a checklist of what would need to be included in that piece of writing. And you're going to think about, like, what is going to be included in the podcast, and we're going to share with each other, and we're going to come together and think about what is success criteria that they have in common. And let's create a rubric together, and then choose what you feel like is going to be the best way for you to communicate your learning”. And not we're actually like co-creating the success criteria, we're co-creating the assessment, there's much more active engagement, there's much more buy in, and I become much more of a facilitator of learning. And then at that point, I can say, Okay, so now let's go into different groups based on kind of the focus of how you want to communicate your knowledge. And maybe everybody who is writing is in one group, and then everybody who's doing audio in one group, and then we can go through like a station rotation, where as I'm meeting with a group of students who's writing, it's like, okay, so let's talk about, like, what are some elements of writing that we're really focusing on? And let me give feedback. And so it really changes the role of the teacher, but it also you get all those additional options. That's almost like a bring your own option cooler in the classroom. 

So yeah, sounds amazing. And what I'm thinking right now is what about the age range, though? H does that because, this sounds like a really, really good thing for let's just say teenagers, you know, from like, you know, anywhere 12 upwards, but for the younger kids is, does this same approach work as effectively? 

Absolutely. So younger students in kindergarten, we know that it's really important for students to practice their math fluency and their math facts. So I observed a kindergarten class where the teacher did have an online solution, and had to build a routine of teaching students how to get on their iPad, and how to log into the solution of which there are many high quality ones. And they could practice their math facts in that way. And once they all had that down, she kind of sat them around and said, “What are some other ways that we can practice numbers and counting? Is there anything that you do at home? Is there anything that you can think of in the classroom or something that you did when you were at like a preschool?” And one student said, “Oh, I like flash cards at home”. And she's like, “Oh, that is such a good thing. Tell me about the flashcards”. Oh, you hold it up and the other person gets it. Oh, I love love. Love that. Like, could we maybe make those flashcards? Oh, yes, we could do it. What are some other things? “I like making a worksheet and then switching with someone”. So you pretend like you're making a test in the new switch? Ooh, that's an excellent idea. I love that one to another is like sometimes I take a handful of Cheerios or pennies, and you see how high you can count. Okay, so let's make a choice board with those four things. And this week, when we do our 10 minutes of fluency, you can either go on your iPad, or you can go over to a section and do flashcards or you can go into the sensory bin and see how high you can count together. Or you can, you know, make a worksheet. And so even with really young learners, it's allowing them to kind of bring in their own cultural capital and their own ideas. And then you can provide some feedback and facilitation, to help them to make sure that those align with what your goals actually are. But I think that whether students are three or four, or whether they're in high school, there are always ways to help them think about is there another way that we could do this. And even if nothing comes out of the conversation, there is so much value in opening that conversation up like you are important here, what you contribute matters, that I am not in charge of this classroom, we together create this learning space. And there's incredible value in that. But it also really helps to increase the flexibility of our instruction, the materials we use, and then the opportunities students have to practice their learning and share what they know. 

Yeah, I love that. It makes it sound more engaging. Well, I'm gonna say this as not a classroom teacher, I have done some classroom teaching in the past, but it sounds like almost a more engaging and fun way. It's kind of how I parent and way like I like to engage my kids in the kind of what we're doing and how we're making choices and things. So I really like that resonates with me and you've sort of led me into the next question. You may have answered it as well, to be honest, in what you just said, but I'm wondering, you mentioned an iPad, then, which I'm still getting used to the idea of my kid using an iPad in the classroom, it's a weird thing. But technology, we can't avoid it. So as technology becomes more advanced, and further influences the learning and our you know, our access to learning, how can we nurture a more human approach to learning? And I feel like you've just kind of answered that in a way. But yeah, any thoughts on that?

Absolutely. So I think that blended learning of which is a way to operationalize providing all these choices, and still being able to provide some explicit instruction is a balance of this, like teacher targeted support with online learning and offline learning. So a real key of blended learning is that there's going to be some sort of balance of the humaneness of learning, and these tech solutions. And so for instance, in that kind of math workshop, let's say we're in kindergarten, and we're in a math workshop, let's save it now that students really understand that iPad, I put students in just three different groups, one group of students who is significantly above a level of Grade Level Mastery on their fluency, their number fluency, one who is at or above grade level, and then one where students are really struggling with basic number sense. And so I might say, the online station is going to be that a third of the class goes on, and they use an iPad. And, you know, it's some sort of ongoing interactive assessment that kind of adapts to their level, and provides us with a really, you know, valid, reliable picture of where students are at potentially. So it's a good way to monitor progress. And then when they come around to me, they get a different set of instruction. So I'm not going to be doing a one on one correspondence with students who can already add, subtract, you know, within 20, it's not gonna be like, how many pennies do I have, but that might be really important instruction for students who have some support needs. So when they're coming with me, they're getting something different. And then that online station might be something like having a bunch of different kind of math stories, and they have to work together to solve them. And so when we think about the blend, that's what becomes really important. We don't want kids on devices all class, but given how good technology is at some things, we don't want to prevent students from having access to that accessibility. And you know, the ability to monitor progress and things like that. So, you know, in thinking about blended learning, whether we're making a playlist, whether we're making a choice board, whether we're doing a station rotation, we always want to think about balancing in person learning and digital learning or online learning. 

Right? Yeah, that makes sense. So I feel like blended learning is fairly key for the whole UDL approach. So here's this question sort of circles back to and I really love it. Yeah, analogy of this party, right? Because what I'm wondering is does UDL ever get misapplied? So I'm wondering, can it be divisive? And I use your analogy as an example of this? Because when you're talking about that, I'm like, well, what about the people that aren't drinking? The non alcoholic drinkers? Who are, there's less of them, and they're in the corner? And I'm wondering, you know, and then there's maybe some people who just won't eat some nuts on the side. So there's, there may be like a big group, as this one approach is really working well. But then you've got these small little groups off to the side. And I'm wondering, you know, is there any disadvantage to this, you know, but do you end up creating more sort of, say peer pressure, or, you know, just the separation that's happening there? Like, how can you be cohesive as a whole when you got these different groups that are learning in different ways. 

So if you're thinking about like a station rotation, for example, two thirds of the class, they're all given the same options. And I think that there's lots of things that a teacher can do kind of socially and emotionally to make every pathway a potential pathway for all students. So I was doing a live training with adults recently. And I would give a little bit of instruction. And then I would pause, and I would say, I want to give you some time to process and to make connections to your own practice. And so I'm going to give you three different options. So my goal is reflection. My goal is not discussion. Right now if my goal was truly your discussing, and your sharing that would be different, but that's not it. Like I've been talking for 15 minutes. I want to give you time to process to connect and really kind of work it out. So you can either take some time and write some notes and kind of process quietly. You can have a conversation sitting with someone and you can do that in this room or you can go outside. And or you can explore this resource, which provides another representation of what I've been talking about. But it's in like a more operationalized way. So I said, before you decide, I'm going to put on a minute on the timer. And I want you to think about like what you need right now based on how you're doing and why. And then you're going to articulate that to your neighbor, because it number one affirms your own self awareness. But it's really good to help build perspective and empathy. When you say to somebody, you know, I really want to talk right now. But the room in here is a little echoey. So I am going to go outside, just because I feel like I can focus better. And someone else might say, that went a little fast for me that instruction. And I kind of love the idea of being able to go back in and look at this resource. So like no offense to you, because I love you. But I really need this time for me. 

So we kind of modeled what that would look like. So I said, “Okay, everyone, tell your neighbors, okay, and now those people who want to go outside, go outside, you get the picture”. But then when the groups were working together, I went up to every group, and I said, “Would any of you give a pitch for why this is a great choice. So when we come back, I want you to tell all the people who didn't choose to come outside and talk why it was great”. And those people who didn't choose to look at this new resource. So we come back in, I have the four people who have agreed consented to do it. And we went around and I'm like, you chose one thing, which appeared to be the best thing for you. But I just want you to know why these others are valuable as well. And had everybody share and then the next time, you know, 20 minutes later, we have the same option. And I said like really think about what your options are. And if you chose something differently, because you were able to like get another perspective, like, let us know. And it ended up being people were like, that was amazing. That was amazing. Because like I kind of thought that people who chose this did it for this reason. And I was wrong. Or I couldn't imagine that there'd be any value in doing that until I heard it. And I think that sometimes we can do that in the classroom. 

So at the party, certainly I'm not going to pull aside and have people pitch. But before they come, I would say I want you all to be really comfortable. And so just know that I'll have some outdoor spaces, I'll have some indoor spaces, I'll have the game on if any of you are interested. I have lots of drinks and things like that I have some food, you're welcome to bring your own, and really choose what you need. And then as a host, I'd be walking around like how are you doing? Can I get you anything else? And I think that sometimes the billet comes from the fact that the option simply isn't allowed for everybody that it's like, those are the kids who are allowed to use their computers. And yeah, you stand out like a sore thumb, if everyone else in the class is writing, and you are using a computer. But if you say everyone, based on how you're feeling, do you want to write by hand? Or do you want to use a computer? It almost like fizzles out that perception that we're all different. 

Right? Yeah, I like that. I mean, as you're talking, what I'm thinking is, you know, students need to have this seems a fairly high level of executive function, maybe. But at the same time, are we really having to teach students how to become expert learners? And like, how do we do that? Like that? It seems like we need to shift our focus on how do we because we're facilitating now in a way a bit more, being really effective, because we're engaging the students, they're finding the best ways they can to learn and taking the information. And, you know, tick the box, you know, meet those goals in terms of learning. So, yeah, how do we, what's that? What's your thoughts around that? Like, do we need to teach them to be expert learners?

I think that we have to scaffold a lot of the process of becoming an expert learner by focusing more on goal setting before we provide options and choices. And a lot more on reflection, after students have made choices, because what we're going to choose is really contextual, that, you know, I love, you know, the most common coffee drink that I order if I were to go out for coffee would be like an iced mocha latte. Right. So like, if you knew me really well, you might say, you know, that's like a drink that Katie likes, an iced mocha latte. But when it's freezing cold, I would never order that. Right? Like I'm in New England here. It could be zero degrees. I wouldn't order an iced coffee if I was cold. I only drink one caffeinated beverage a day. So if you brought me one and I had already had it, you don't want to see me double caffeine. That'd be a terrible, terrible experience for everybody. You know, it might be that my stomach is off, like you know, when you're just not feeling so hot. I don't want milk if my stomach is off. And so like what I would choose is really contextual. And I think that teachers are like, I know kids, I know what they need. 

That is like false logic, because kids needs, they're always changing. And so there's no way to get it right, without giving students time to say like, Okay, how are you doing right now? What do you need in this moment. And again, most of the time, I'm very happy with a mocha latte. But there are times when it's not going to work for me. And I would really hope that there are other options. And the same is true of our kids. So one of the things that I always do is like, tell me what you're going to choose and why. And I can give students lots of options for write that down or turn and talk to a partner. But then, after they've experienced it, you know, they've been working on what they think is going to be effective for 10 or 15 minutes, like, let's pause, you know, how many of you feel like you made a choice that is really serving your learning? Well, you're feeling challenged, you're feeling productive? How many of you maybe like over chose, like, Oh, you're feeling a little frustrated, come over here, let's talk through it, we can choose something else, not a big deal at all. How many of you are feeling like, I'm not challenged, like I maybe maybe took something too easy, and I'm rushing. And I think that's just a part of it is trying to scaffold those kinds of reflective pieces. And if you're working with really young learners, sometimes they simply don't know. So when we say like, which of these is going to work best for you? They don't know. And I used to call that like Goldilocks times. So Goldilocks is a very famous fairy tale, this cute little thing breaks into a bears lair, you know, and she like, tries all their porridge and sleeps and all their beds and sits and all their chairs. And sometimes I'll say with students, like, you're all going to try all three of these, simply because I want you to experience it. And it might be a no thank you bite for you. You might try it and say that did not work for me in this context at all. But at least you now know what it is and how to do it. Because if circumstances change, it might be a good option. 

Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, I can think of as my four year old right now. And UDL works in terms of my parenting approach. That's for sure. So what are the main barriers to UDL at this time that you see?

I think number one is really understanding what our goals are. I think that some teachers, myself included, really thought about teaching and learning as like activities or units. Like, now we're doing the penguin unit. Now we're doing Halloween. Now we're reading old man in the sea. Now we're doing fractions. And it's like, what exactly is it that all students have to know and do? Because fractions isn't like a very clear objective, right? But it's like it's kind of like an overarching topic or a theme. And I think the biggest barrier is that we provide flexibility, but that flexibility has to result in that standard. So if I'm working on a writing standard, every kid has to produce writing. Some of them might need graphic organizers or outlining. Some of them might need more time to brainstorm than others. Some of them might need exemplars reviewing rubrics, like there's lots of options I can provide to prepare students to write. And certainly when we do our rough drafts, some students might do it in hardcopy, some students might need to use voice to text but like the writing has to be produced, regardless of all the assistive tech regardless of all of the scaffolds. And I think that sometimes people will provide flexibility where flexibility is just simply not appropriate, and is actually like lowering expectations and lowering opportunities for students to build necessary skills. If you're working on a writing standard, you're not speaking, you're not making a video, we're not doing a puppet show. Okay? It's like what flexibility do you need to write? So I think one big barrier is we really have to focus on setting really firm goals for every single unit in that what is it that all students have to know? And what is it that all students have to be able to do? The next is I think, time that a lot of people just are so so so stretched thin, that even the thought of like, how do I even find 15 minutes to think differently about how I could do this tomorrow. And what I always say is try to think less about universal design lessons and more about universally designed routines. Because within a class period, most teachers will do like a think pair share or a turn and talk a couple of times. And what really is the purpose of that? Is it reflection? Is it discussion, right? And when we think a little bit more intentionally and say you know right now, it's really just an opportunity for active engagement. 

I'm not working on speaking and listening. We're not working on writing. So I can say to students pause the timer for two minutes. You can either write the answer or draw a picture, or you can talk to someone, right like that's a great example of a flexible strategy that I can use over and over again, if I do need students to talk, some students like me are super chatty and are ready to talk right away. And some students need more processing time. So you could say, we're going to do a turn and talk, those of you who are ready, come over to this side of the classroom, we'll start those of you who want to just take a couple of minutes to think or look back on your notes. So you feel a little more prepared. Come over here, right. And that doesn't take time, because that actually becomes a part of my classroom routine. So I think that that can be a really helpful thing. And, you know, I think the last two number one is a willingness to be more flexible, I think it's very scary, to just allow students to try things. And the last is there's this really false perception that there is no flexibility in real life. So people will say, I totally understand what you're saying, but ultimately, they have to take this exam, that's very important. And that exam is not flexible. And you know, what I say is, the biggest reason why students don't do well on those exams is they don't have the knowledge and skills. That is the number one biggest reason is like, the kid doesn't have the understanding, or doesn't have the skill yet. Now, I am not a fan of the lack of flexibility. But I think that if we teach in a really accessible way, and ensure that students really can meet the standards, then we can start pulling back on some of those scaffolds and say, okay, so you all understand now the causes of the First World War? If you were to have to answer a question about it, on something that was more standardized, the question might look like this. Let's talk about like, what do you think that expectation is? What are some of the things that are going to prevent you from sharing what you know, let's try it this way, and do it formatively. And then I can provide instruction to help people transform their knowledge into that format. But you know, people always say you know, and sometimes, you just have to pay your taxes. And I always joke about that. That's the best example of UDL, right, because like, you can file on paper, you can file electronically, you can hire an accountant, you can do it yourself. There's this really big window, where you file, right, it's not like you have to do it on this day. It's like, anytime before this date, can't pay them, file an extension, right? It's the greatest example of UDL. 

So I think that even on a standardized test, I remember, you know, I taught middle school. And, you know, I was like, we have gone through every standard, you know, this, right. This is an interesting format, which you're not going to see a lot in life, but it is something that's important. And they're going to ask you multiple choice questions. So I did a whole unit on how to write multiple choice questions, so that they understood the psychology behind how they were asked. So I'm like, choose anything, I don't care, baseball, you know, Pokeyman, TikTok. And like write multiple choice questions based on a text using the techniques that they use to make them. Another thing that I did was when we're talking about like transferring to standardized tests, and like, do you know, there's actually many ways to approach text based questions. So like, some people read the text first, then go through the questions one by one and answer them. Some people read the questions. First, go back to the text. Some people read the questions first and the answers, and then go back to the text. And, you know, I was like, talk to me about why one strategy would be better than another. And even you know, 12/13 year olds are like, you know, well, if you don't have as much reading stamina, and it takes you a lot longer to get through a text, it probably makes more sense to look at the questions. First, write them down on your scratch paper. And then as you're reading, you can stop and go, oops, that's one of the questions. Let me go back. So I don't have to read the whole text again to find it. And we started talking about a lot of problem solving strategies like that. And, you know, I had students think about like, Okay, so now that you know how multiple choice questions are asked, and now that you've seen many versions of the test, and you know, you're already have the knowledge and skills, like what's the best strategy for you to do? Well, and is that an automatic? Everyone's doing amazing? No, because we don't have a magic wand for learning. Is that a way for students to show incredible growth from previous standardized assessments? Absolutely. 

I love that. That's a really good exercise. Super fun.

So if you so here's a thought, because so here at Live It Earth, we're a blended learning platform that's been designed and being used, you know, across Canada. And so I'm just wondering, is there a great online resource that works really well with the UDL approach? Like can you imagine I say this because technology now is a big part of our lives. Is there some magic platform that we could just change everything to make the teachers that are resistant to these this approach to make it easier for them? 

Not yet. I mean, there are lots of tools. And there's lots of curriculum programs, like even just think about, like an online textbook. You know, when you and I back in the day were in high school, we were plopped on like this 60 pounds like a textbook, and it was, you know, that was it. And now, you know, a lot of this curriculum has embedded videos and read aloud, and it can translate to other languages. And you know, just by nature of something being digital, you know, I teach a graduate course on a platform called Canvas. And when I provide feedback on student papers, I can choose do I want to type? Do I want to voice to text? Do I want to record audio? Do I want to record a video at the press of a button. And so learning management systems are really, really great, I guess platform so that we can provide that flexibility, because my student in those classes, you know, if you have to produce writing, you have to produce writing, but like voice to text is embedded, grammar check is embedded. There's rubrics, there's opportunity to revise it. But I think that there is there's no platform that yet thankfully, can come close to a teacher's expertise in really getting to know learners, understanding the barriers they face, and then providing all of that human feedback that I think, you know, learning is so much about relationships, and even if a platform could eliminate some barriers technologically and could provide some different pathways technologically, I think that our ability to guide to connect to provide feedback, that's something that humans will always do better than any of these chat bots. And I think that, you know, whenever I provide feedback in my online class, I do it by recording video. And I said, I just want you to know, there's a human behind this, that I typed out the feedback and you can read it. But at the end, I want you to know, like how touched I was to have the opportunity to read your work. And I'm real. And like, I think that that is really important. 

That's great. So UDL. Really, yeah, it's the human approach, isn't it? It's human centered design, you can't connect with humans very well, unless you're a human. Yeah, so far. So do you I'm just interested. So is UDL, are you seeing a lot of resistance? Or is this something that people are really moving forward? You know, in your part of the world?

I don't see, I do not see a lot of resistance, I see some technical barriers. So for the most part, people recognize it makes good sense. They recognize that it's available in other aspects of their life. I don't think that systems are always designed to support teachers in doing their best work. So you know, having access to really innovative technology, having access to ongoing professional learning, and instructional coaching, providing access to instructional leaders who are going to give teachers feedback about their practice, and help them recognize and minimize barriers through design. So I think that a lot of teachers are really tasked with doing this independently. And that becomes a barrier for them to be able to provide kind of this level. Other things, you know, a district, if it's telling you like, this is the pacing guide, you stick with this curriculum, no ifs, ands, or buts. Teachers might say I would love to be flexible, I'm not allowed to be flexible. So it is very, very rare. It's not unheard of. But it's rare that someone will tell me, I will not be flexible. It's more of like, can you talk to my administrators, please, because this sounds amazing. But we have these common assessments that are not flexible, or we have this pacing guide that I have to keep up with, or I don't have any time to come and plan with, like my colleagues in special education, for example. So I don't really understand how to eliminate this barrier yet for a kid who has significant support needs. So I think that it's a lot about lifting up teachers so that they can better serve students. And that's a lot of the work that I do now is trying to support leaders in better supporting teachers, because just as Mrs. Kraus believed all kids will be successful. I believe that all teachers will be successful if we can help them see why this is important. And help them understand how to do it, and then help them to really understand what UDL is and what it's not. And you know what type of flexibility serves kids well, and what type of flexibility prevents them from doing well. We just need more time for that learning.

Yeah, totally. So just to summarize, it’s been really great to listen to you talking about the UDL approach. Now, aside from going out and purchasing your books, which we will put in the show notes, what are some samples like if you I mean, I know you've said some of this stuff already, but if you could just summarize like I'm a teacher and I really want to start using this UDL approach. What are some just simple basic steps just to get me started?

Okay, so I'm actually going to put something right now in the chat for you. And you can put it in the show notes. And it's a UDL “Would You Rather” ebook that I worked on with a number of educators in Washington State. And we started thinking about those instructional routines. And so you know, as we serve students, even before we make any real changes with potentially curriculum, or large scale changes in our classroom, really thinking about some of the strategies that we use, and how those might create barriers for students. So I am not somebody who spends a lot of time sitting down. And if I am learning, like, you know, before I jumped on this podcast, I was reading a book, and you know, a great book, A Repair Kit for Grading by Ken O'Connor. And him and I are meeting on Zoom tomorrow, and I was reading a book, sitting in a desk reading this book, I would never do that in real life. Like, I am on my couch, I have my highlighter, I have my coffee. 

So, you know, just as simple as in this class, we all sit in desks, that creates really considerable barriers for some students. And so like, it's as simple sometimes as saying, Okay, listen, it's really important that we are not disruptive to each other. Because this is an environment that in order to, you know, focus, I really want it to be like sensory sensitive, but you know, really think about what you need to do your best work. And would you rather sit at your desk? Or do you think you'd be more comfortable or more productive if you found another space in the room? And you know, like, think about it? What do you really need? And what are you choosing today? And why are you choosing it now, this is not to be silly, and go under a desk to be silly. But I would much rather, if I'm really going to focus on reading, do this. 

Or, for instance, if I'm giving some explicit instruction, I do this all the time in my graduate courses. And when I'm working with adults, someone always takes advantage of it. I'm like, I'm going to try to talk and like no more than 10 or 15 minute kind of mini lessons. And then there'll be time for you to explore resources to connect things like that. Don't feel like you have to sit to learn, I'm perfectly comfortable with you getting up and standing, moving your chair away from the table. Some of you might need to pace or sit on the floor, whatever works well for you works well for me. So I am telling you right now, please make yourself comfortable in this room stand up at any time walk out at any time. There are always adults standing up always. Right. And it's one of those things that it's like, not earth shattering. But it's a good way to start building executive function and self reflection. And the more that we can get those little wins of like, the reason I'm providing you with this option is because there's a potential barrier if I don't, and I want you to think about would this be valuable for you? And do you want to try it? And why? And then at the end? Like, how did that serve your learning? Was that better for you? Do you recommend it for other people like it's that kind of thing. So you know, as people go through, you know, even thinking about as a teacher, I would generally hand out an assignment like hardcopy worksheet, or I'd read it out loud.

It's really easy to say, we're starting an assignment. Some of you may just want to start, dive in read, annotate, build your own understanding. And then I'm happy to come over and check in and clarify directions. Those of you who want to come over here with me, I'll read it out loud, answer your questions as we go. We'll get started in about 10 minutes, which of those things would be better for you? Like those are hacks? Right? But again, a lot of people go, Well, is that going to make that much of a difference? Yes, it is. Because some kids just need to get started. They're antsy, they know it's going to take a long to process, right? They become disruptive when I'm going too slow. The alternative of go start on your own if the kids aren't decoding it and don't understand it. It's an exercise in frustration and unproductivity. So instead of saying like, I'm clarifying directions for everyone who needs me to clarify directions, and will kids make bad decisions? Of course they will, because all of us make bad decisions. We've all rolled up to an all you can eat buffet and chose the wrong thing. But we learned it was the wrong thing by trying it. And sometimes we have to do that with kids as well.

I love that. That's such a great way to wrap up the podcast. Katie, I really appreciate you bringing the energy to the podcast today. You're doing really fantastic work. I will make sure that we share all of your books, your nine I think it's nine you've authored?

I think about 11.  

Oh, sorry. You are prolific!

I love it. I love it. I love teachers. And this is possible. It really is possible. Start small, try things, see how they're going. Ultimately, we're doing a lot for kids that they're capable of doing themselves and that's making us a little tired and we don't need that in our lives.

Katie, thank you so much. 

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for joining us on the 21st-Century Teacher, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Please do subscribe so you don't miss out on the next show. And also don't forget to check out our fantastic online learning platform, which is liveit.earth. Thanks again and we'll see you soon.