Dr. Gillian Judson is an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at Simon Fraser University. She teaches in Educational Leadership and Curriculum and Instruction programs. Her scholarship looks at imagination’s role in leadership and learning (K-post-secondary). Gillian is an educator, writer, researcher, and parent. She is also the primary catalyst behind the creation, direction, and expansion of imaginED.

In her role as an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at Simon Fraser University (SFU), she teaches mostly about an imagination-focused approach to teaching called Imaginative Education (IE) and the specific ways to engage imagination in leadership and in learning all aspects of the curriculum.

Imaginative Ecological Education, or IEE, has been the focus of her research for 15 years. IEE is about engaging the body and emotion in place-based and imagination-focused teaching. All ages, all topics, all contexts. The Walking Curriculum is the most recent publication on this topic.

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Podcast Transcript

Hi, my name is Blue. And I'm the host of this new podcast, the 21st-Century Teacher with Live It Earth. And my job is to ensure that our teachers and students get the most out of our programs. This new podcast series is just one of the ways I'm going to be supporting our community of educators with a monthly conversation with a special guest educator discussing a different aspect of 21st-century teaching and learning.

Today, I'm talking with Gillian Judson, who is an educator, writer, researcher and parent. She is also the primary catalyst behind the creation, direction, and expansion of Imagine Ed. In her role as an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at Simon Fraser University, she teaches mostly about an imaginative focused approach to teaching called Imaginative Education. And the specific ways to engage imagination, in leadership, and in learning all aspects of the curriculum. Imaginative Ecological Education or IEE has been the focus of her research for 15 years. IEE is about engaging the body and emotion in place based and imagination, focus teaching. All ages, all topics, all contexts. The Walking Curriculum is her most recent publication on this topic. 

So Gillian, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Thanks for having me!

So let's just dive straight in. I want to ask how does imagination play a role in human learning? When we think of imagination, are we thinking fairies and unicorns? And how can teachers engage and maximize student learning, you know, with this technique?

Totally fantastic questions. But it is absolutely true that we tend to associate imagination with unicorns and fairies with young children. There's so much misconception around what imagination is and how it contributes to human understanding. So for anybody who's really seriously interested in understanding how imagination contributes to our intellectual development, and to all learning, you really need to study the work of Dr. Kieran Egan, Professor Emeritus from Simon Fraser University. Starting in the late 70s, he's been publishing work, very, very strong theoretical conception of imagination, and also the tools that we actually use as humans to make sense of the world. And that these are the tools that actually engage and grow imagination. So the short answer to your question is that when we engage emotion in learning, we wake up imagination, and that's really the only time learning is happening. 

Maybe you've been in a class where you heard words mumbles and what have you, you were able to sort of regurgitate those on a test, but you didn't learn anything. The moments in life when we actually learn, and this is also supported with Affective Neuroscience, they have moved us emotionally. When we are affected by an experience, we remember it. Well, the same can be said for learning. And this is where imagination comes in. Imagination comes in when we are affected. So that's why storytelling is such a powerful way to teach things. Because when you emotionally shape knowledge…so say, for example, you have a topic that we wouldn't consider to be necessarily engaging, like punctuation. We just got to teach the kids how to use that semicolon, how to use that colon, whatever. Well, no, I mean, punctuation is really an ingenious human invention, that's allowed us to represent the body in communication when our bodies aren't necessarily involved. So we might consider the semicolon like a wink, we might consider the history behind the comma and who created it. So everything in the curriculum can be understood as a latent story to tell. And so why do we want to do that? We want to do that because human beings are inherently imaginative. We are curious, we engage with the world around us with wonder. And so long story is we've kind of schooled that out. We kind of think of school as a different place than that wide open, interesting curious place that we we tend to live in in the world when we're not in quote “school”.

It sounds to me like a big part of this Imaginative Learning is around storytelling, teaching as storytelling. Is that right?

It definitely is, because one of the main ways in which imagination has developed within cultures around the world is through story. Story is the vehicle of imagination. One of my three main inspirations now, I've mentioned Dr. Kieran Egan if you're interested in this also, Rob Hopkins, a scholar from the United Kingdom wrote a fabulous book From What Is to What If: Unleashing the Power of Imagination to Create the Futures We Want. Really applying imagination and concepts around imagination, interviewing endless people about how imagination is central to their lives. And then a fantastic book by Dr. Steven Asma called the Evolution of Imagination. And in that you'll hear how indeed, yes, story is a major vehicle for the growth and development of imagination. I want to quickly introduce a metaphor that I think will help better situate how I use the term imagination. Because if you were to Google images of imagination, you'd get swirling colors, you'd get a unicorn, you'd get fairies and bright twittery lights. And one image I like that I've seen frequently is you have to picture a cardboard box with four helium, red balloons, and there's a little child in it. And they've imagined that they're a pilot, and they're soaring through the air with their arms wide apart. This is what we think of when we consider imagination. So it's no wonder we don't take it into the boardrooms, or the corporate meetings, or the the medical schools where we're teaching because we do tend to associate it with children and with make belief. So I would like to bring imagination down to earth. And some of my research lately has been suggesting we talk about imagination as soil. Imagination comes first, it comes before the creation or the innovation. So if the creation or innovation is that plant or flower we notice in front of us on a forest path, it's rooted in the soil. So imagination comes first, it holds the roots of all creation and innovation, and importantly, you can increase the fertility of soil by cultivating it. Now I know all metaphors fall apart, you can over cultivate. But there's tools we can use as humans to cultivate imagination, to increase it, because it's not like imagination is the gift of the few, it's the gift of all of us. We can grow and develop it.

I love that. I love the metaphor of the soil. That's perfect. So I'd like to think about this in terms of Ecological Education. So as an environmentalist, and Outdoor Educator of  probably on and off 20 years (not doing currently), but as a parent as well. I've always believed that the connection to nature, when it comes to kids and learning is so key when it comes to them caring about the natural world. So how can we develop students ecological understanding as part of that everyday education? Just to expand on some of the thoughts you've already shared? 

It's so great to be talking to you today Blue, because this was the question that led me in my doctoral research, a long time ago. I was teaching in an urban high school, I had fantastic students, but they were completely disaffected, they had no emotional connection to place any particular place. And what was very troubling for me was that these amazing students like, they really shaped my world in positive ways. They had scholarships to universities, because they could tell you all about climate change, they could talk about it, but they had no emotional connection to any particular place. So that was my question, what is required to cultivate ecological understanding? And at the end of the day, what I noticed is we have a lot of programs that can get kids outside, sometimes maybe a bit more than other times, increasingly less as the learners go into the higher grades. But what was missing from the programs I was looking at was the central inclusion of imagination in the pedagogy. Because I do not think you can take an objective based approach to teaching, which is the logical way most of us have been taught to teach, you want to teach something about science, break it down into constituent pieces, teach those pieces in a logical way, and then you determine whether they understand it at the end. That does not help us bridge the gap between knowing about environmental challenges and being emotionally connected and affected enough to live differently in the world. So instead, I proposed we need to involve Imaginative Education. And this is where my Imaginative Ecological Education work comes from. So rather than staying saying, okay, what's a logical way to break up this topic into pieces to teach it? We begin by saying, what is the story on this topic? What's emotionally significant about it? Because if we want students to learn anything or care about anything they have to feel. So I think on a regular basis, the ways we do this, and this is some of the work I've been publishing on lately. Since the doctoral work is that we need to incorporate three principles in how we teach anything. One is the feeling principle. We have to talk more about feeling in classrooms and not just social emotional learning, which is incredibly important. But I'm also talking about students feeling something about moss, feeling something about democracy, feeling something about punctuation. So they need to feel we also need to have their bodies engaged, and I know you wanted to talk about that. But our bodies are, we are somatically connected to the world, how are we going to understand our connection in a living world unless we feel it. So we need to use the body's tools to engage imagination. This is an area deep ecologist, Ariah Nice refers to as activeness, how are we going to engage the body so we can actually feel our immersion in the world. And then the third principle is place. We do need to have more learning opportunities that connect knowledge to the cultural and social context and natural context, excuse me, in which the children are learning. So those three principles coming together would be very important, in my opinion, for cultivating care. To live differently in the world.

Are there any practical ways that you could throw out there for a teacher to engage the kids, the class, in the wildness of what's around them, when you're in a more urban kind of setting? Because I can imagine people think, we don't have that beautiful parklands, you know, on our doorstep, like, ah, how do we do that? Do we do it through community gardens? Or what, you know, what are the some of the ways that you've seen people doing that?

Oh, absolutely, that the work I started was in an urban school. And my question was, how does this even work? Well, we have to identify our assumptions. I firmly believe the world is wonderful. I believe there's wonder and wildness everywhere around us if we're willing to look for it and be alert to it. So the very practical way in which I would encourage people to begin to connect to the wildness in the world around them, even if that schoolyard doesn't have much green space on it at all, or even if it's difficult to get to a park. Because we need to not just do this once a year on a field trip, we need to do this work daily, with children starting in kindergarten. So by the time they get to grade eight, and nine, they fully expect to learn subjects outdoors, and in ways that connect them to place and land. So the theory that I developed, it wasn't accessible enough to teachers and I really want to encourage and learn with and from educators that are motivated to move learning outside, but don't really necessarily know how. All of those many teachers that care about the natural world. But they're not botanists, right? They're not biologists. And so they feel like they can't do “outdoor education”. And so I was involved in an outdoor environmental school project many years ago, it's a fully Outdoor School in Maple Ridge here, K through seven, it's been running for a few years, all fully outdoors. And when I was part of the initial planning for that school, I thought like how do we teach kids to read fully outside using the natural world, and I was applying the principles of Imaginative Ecological Education. And it's been a very, well, the books been well received. But it still wasn't practical enough, because I think your question is, you know, tomorrow, how can we begin to do this? And so, in about 2015, I started another project called the Walking Curriculum. So how do we move, learning outside any grade in ways that engage emotion imagination, and help us notice the unique and particularities of place? So that's what the Walking Curriculum is, it started out with three, four or five ways to move a science, math, literacy, whatever you're doing, outdoors. Because if we don't notice place, we'll never develop an emotional connection to it. So the goal of a Walking Curriculum, and in that resource, ultimately, the goal is for educators and students to develop a disposition on their own. But there's 60 Walking themes in that book, if you explored your school yard 60 different ways with 60 different lenses on it, the goal is to cultivate one, much more awareness of what's there like becoming hoarders of details. It's not just a schoolyard. There's a lot of wildness going on there. There's a lot of detail we tend to miss. So if we explore it with different walking themes, these are themes that I'm using that engage the tools of imagination that I've been talking about. This is very much a practice connected to Imaginative Ecological Education. How do we move outside with curiosity and wonder, and over time, we're developing an emotional connection to place the students are actively moving and learning. And what teachers are telling me that are employing this practice is that it takes them longer to do walks now because the students are observing far more things, noticing more things. They're expected to be outside, and they're not willing to not move it outside, they expect that walking and exploration will be part of their learning. So for me, this is a really a positive example of students, you know, innate need to be outdoors and to move and to connect. It's a form of schooling and a way of learning that's feeding into that.

Yeah, reminds me of walking with my three year old, complete fascination with everything from a rock, to a blade of grass, to a tree, and so on. And it makes sense to get the body moving as well, I think is so important than being stagnant in a classroom when it comes to learning. So do we know, how many teachers out there, is there a large community of teachers that are taking this approach to the classroom now? This is something that is building?

It's definitely part of a larger like, I mean, place based education and all we're learning from Indigenous ways of knowing and being who've had place and nature and land at the heart of their pedagogy time immemorial. I mean, as a white Western scholar trained in Western pedagogies, and also continuing to work within them, Place Based Thinking and Learning is a very legitimate facet of Western thinking. But it's a narrow slice. It's unusual, right? So if we want to do more of this, we really need to build bridges with Indigenous scholars and educators. And any work in place based education is a step in the right direction. But I still would say that some of these approaches don't formally acknowledge how we need to engage imagination. But in terms of Walking Curriculum, it's exciting to see more and more educators interested in it. Just for example, we've had a Walking Curriculum challenge, a few years in a row, and every year we're getting hundreds more educators being involved. And it but it's also hard to keep track of Blue, because it doesn't cost anything to try this to move learning outside. And there is an actual resource, but there's also a lot of free ideas and support on our website, so you could try it tomorrow. What I wanted to say to you was imagine you're going on a walk with your three year old, or your 10 year old, or your 14 year old. But when you head out, the theme you're looking for is hiding places. And so the world is really engaged in this massive game of hide and go seek, predator prey. So where would be the best hiding place for a human? What about a raccoon? And what about a spider? Let's go find that. And then there's another tool after that engages imagination further. Same walk a different day, you're looking for lines and boundaries. So where do they notice lines, where places they think are transitioning from one place to another? What is a boundary mean? How about a roots, looking for roots? What does it mean to feel rooted in a place. So now looking for roots exploring the meaning of the idea of roots. Same walk, by same walk, I mean same geographical location, you might do a Lovely Unlovely walk, this is a really popular one among educators. So you get kids to list and notice things they think are lovely. And why do they think they're lovely, and then unlovely. And then you make them switch. And they have to argue that those unlovely things are really lovely. And the lovely things are, are not that lovely. And so what comes out is really the idea of subjectivity. And so these are exercises where you're exploring and seeking things in the same area, but you can come back and back with different lenses on. Rebecca Solnit, has written a lot about walking. And I believe it was she who said that, when we walk, we can become hoarders of detail. Because we tend to have blinders on and not notice much of what's going on around us. And so the people that are picking this up, are enjoying going into the depth of the immediate environment in imaginative ways.

I really love that. And I have to say, as an Outdoor Educator with a lot of experience, it has been a few years since I've been in the line of work, but you've just really got me excited about the next walk I take with my three year old. Particularly the hiding one, he’s very good at hiding. So I think that's one he will relate to. And I love actually, what it reminds me of is just the importance of no matter what age you're at, of being curious. And just being curious about what's around you or what's around the next corner in and we so often take where we live for granted. And so the Walking Curriculum, let's take a moment to plug that because you did. You've got the Walking Curriculum book. I think I'm right in saying that? And this event happens on the 22nd of April each year, correct? And then it's the 30 Day Challenge.

Yes, so this year it starts on 22nd of April. It’s started on different days in the past, but this year we're launching on Earth Day and it's a commitment from educators that they will take learning outside for part of the day. This isn't the whole day, this is part of your day will be spent outside. And it'll be inquiry and imagination focused. And part of the value of just doing a bit of background reading on the Walking Curriculum is then you really want to think about how is what the kids are learning outside going to feed in and inform what they then do inside the classroom later. This is not a break from learning. It's not a recess. And I remember getting an email, I've shared this story many times I got an email that title was I love the Walking Curriculum is from an educator in the US. And I opened it and I was ready to enjoy it. And she said, I just love the Walking Curriculum, kids need a break from learning. And I just cringe because this is the beliefs we're trying to undo here. When your learner's are outdoors doing math in the playground, they're not taking a break, they're actually just doing math. They're doing math. And so kids need their break. And they need to be left alone to play on their break, let them play. But this is an extension of the classroom. So the more you know about the principles and underlying premises, the better. So Walking Curriculum, 30 days, take it outside part of the day, there's a website that has a lot of resources, there's ways to interact with other educators that are doing it, there's prizes. And importantly, for every teacher that signs up, we're donating. We being ImaginEd, we are donating $1 to the Environmental Youth Alliance, which is a fantastic registered organization here in Vancouver that does tons of gardening with youth on the east side, and it's just a great organization to support.

That sounds amazing. So beyond the Walking Curriculum, are there any other ways that a teacher could learn more about how to incorporate this style of teaching into their class? How do they expand their toolkit? Or is the Walking Curriculum, the best place to start?

The Walking Curriculum is definitely the starting place because it's a little book and it's very thin on theory. It just provides outlets but it's a set of activities. If you wanted you could do 60 starting today, one a day all the way through. But hopefully in reading it you become curious about why are we using metaphors? Why are we using story all the time? Why are we looking for dramatic tensions? Why are we rhyming and patterning? And all of these are the cognitive tools that we started out talking about. These are all tools that engage and grow imagination. From the perspective of an Imaginative Educator and so I'm referring back to Kieran Egan's work on teaching as storytelling. The goal of education is not to to teach particular knowledge, but it's to educate learners with the most richest and able set of tools of imagination possible. It's the best way to prepare them for life, as if they are richly able to envision the possible. And so if you're doing the Walking Curriculum, and you're curious why each sort of inquiry is paired with this tool, then you might read another book which describes literacy and Science Teaching and how to do it outside. Or you might go to the website educationthatinspires.ca. And there's a ton of resources on how to engage imagination in in the classroom and literacy, or math, or science, or history, or teaching K through post secondary. So there is a ton of free information on the internet. And then there's also books and other materials and graduate level programs and diplomas and all kinds of things you can learn to go deeper if you're interested.

That's fantastic, such great information. And you we will put in the show notes, of course, the links to these various sites. But from the one the main website, you just could you just say that one again?

Sure. It's called ImagineEd. Like imagine, but Imagine Ed, education that inspires and it's got a lot of information on Imaginative Education, that theory about how to make our lessons more like engaging stories for any topic. It's got a whole section on Imaginative Ecological Education. It's got a whole section on the Walking Curriculum. My research now is really looking at the role of imagination in leadership. So there's a section on imagination in leadership. And then thankfully, there's hundreds of posts from people that are not me, because it's a blog that really shares anybody who's doing imagination focused work. And so there's a lot of things to be learned from there. We also have a chat an ImagineEd chat on Twitter, every few months. So there's lots of ways to get involved starting with ImagineEd: educationthatinspires.ca. 

And the Walking Curriculum, which starts on April 22.

Yeah, so I really hope we can…our goal is 1111 educators. Do you know why Blue? Why do you think 1111? Well, that looks like four legs, doesn't it? I think it does. So that's our random number that we're trying to achieve. We'd love to donate $1,111 to the Environmental Youth Alliance.

That's great. It's a good number. It has good significance beyond this, I'm sure. No, it's fantastic. Gillian, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing. And I'm honestly really inspired by the work that you're doing. And also the way now I'm going to look at my walks with my three year old very differently.

Oh, I hope so. You should tell me about the hiding places, if you go looking for those.

We will for sure. Yeah, and we will be promoting the Walking Curriculum, 22nd of April. We've mentioned a few times. But yeah, definitely look that up on the website. Teachers, of course, and classes will sign up for this. Is this something…I mean, I guess anybody could sign up. Anybody with kids can sign up.

You don't even need to have kids! I mean, if you're somebody that wants to commit to going outside every day, and looking at the world with wonder, I encourage parents to sign up, homeschooling parents, retired people, people that just like to go out every day and just support getting outside and engaging with the wonderful world that we live in!

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Gillian!

Thanks for having me, Blue. I really appreciate it!

Thanks for joining us on the 21st-Century Teacher, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Please do subscribe so you don't miss out on the next show. And also don't forget to check out our fantastic online learning platform, which is liveit.earth. Thanks again and we'll see you soon.